SNES/Satellaview split?

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C. V. Reynolds
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SNES/Satellaview split?

Post by C. V. Reynolds » 27 Nov 2009 21:21

Hello. I am suggesting a Super Nintendo and Satellaview split. That is, that Satellaview (BS) games are removed from the SNES dat and be given their own dat. This is much in the same way that Famicom Disk System was split from NES and 32X was split from Megadrive/Genesis.

I believe that a SNES and Satellaview split would allow the both of them to be focused on more easily and would be consistent with past splits. If you have reasons for not wanting a split, then I should understand (but would be legitimately curious to know those reasons).

kiddocabbusses
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Re: SNES/Satellaview split?

Post by kiddocabbusses » 28 Nov 2009 02:11

It's a bit of a complex issue, but I personally feel a separate Satellaview DAT would be an ideal to quell much of the confusion about Satellaview games amongst the less educated. The comparison to the Famicom Disk System is probably the most apt one for reference and comparison's sake (when comparing how the data should be databased, not as much how the system functioned itself, of course).
It'll be easier to answer questions about the Satellaview when people don't mistakenly preconceive that the games should run on SNES Hardware without the need for any Satellaview-specific protocols.
(As for the games, they were on 8M Memory Packs, which plugged into the BS-X cartridge or other compatible cartridges. This is more or less similar to how FDS disks plugged into a drive connected to a RAM adaptor/BIOs data.)

The best argument anyone could really have against it is mostly, for 7z/goodmerging purposes, how many of the games are actually identical to standard SFC ROMs, ranging from having the same basic engine/graphics to being literally the same sans header data.
Of course, it's also possible that the nature of the data - downloaded, rather than pure ROM - may also be a factor, as would the compatible "8M Memory Pack slotted" cartridges, which are more "truly" SFC ROMs than the 8M Memory Packs that go into them.
On top of all this, we'd also have to consider whether things like the Sufami Turbo need their own DATs.

Byuu's recent BSNES updates seem to be taking to the idea of segregating all the "standard" SFC data from the likes of Satellaview and Sufami Turbo ROMs, based on the new acceptable file-naming structures (.bs and .st and such)

I would work on a DAT myself, but I apparently am talentless at DAT work.

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C. V. Reynolds
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Re: SNES/Satellaview split?

Post by C. V. Reynolds » 29 Nov 2009 05:43

Thank you for that information. The fact that the BS-X games were actually stored on the memory packs, as you mentioned, has done more to convince me that these dats should be split. I love the parent/child dat thing and actually use it, but I believe that it should never interfere with proper organization. After all, Famicom Disk System has games that were also released on NES, changed little, but that split happened nonetheless (Metroid and Castlevania are two such examples). I don't think that will be a problem, thus.

I'm glad that you agree with me on this issue, kiddocabbusses.

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Re: SNES/Satellaview split?

Post by ReyVGM » 01 Jul 2010 06:53

Sorry to bump this, but I must say that I agree with the split.
I haven't thought of it before, but if you need a separate "console" to play the games, then by all means the roms should be separated too the same way FDS is separated from NES, Sega CD/32X from Genesis and PCE CD from PCE.

If there's no way to play a BS game on the SFC without having the BS device attached to the SFC, then the games belong effectively to the other BS and not to the SFC.

Technically, the BS is a whole new system. Even if it was not marketed that way.

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Re: SNES/Satellaview split?

Post by Gary_Oak » 04 Aug 2010 16:17

I also think that removing the Satellaview games from the SNES set (and give them their very own DAT) would be best, as Satellaview games won't work on native SNES hardware but with its add-on, the BS-X. So yes, this situation is not that different from GEN/32X or even NES/FDS (although the latter was an actual system of its own and not a separate add-on).

EDIT: There's only a catch though. Like kiddocabbusses had stated, if we were to do this we would have to consider in doing the same for the Sufami Turbo games since those games were also made for a SNES add-on and not the console itself. And then there's the whole "Nintendo Power" releases (the kiosk service, not the magazine), which was roughly the equivalent to a digital distribution service back in that time.

In short, by opening an exception to Satellaview, we would have to open one for Sufami Turbo and Nintendo Power releases as well, which I don't really see as a problem if you ask me.

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Re: SNES/Satellaview split?

Post by C. V. Reynolds » 06 Aug 2010 19:44

I agree about SuFami Turbo. It was its own add-on like Satellaview. Why the Nintendo Power carts, however? They just plugged into the Super Famicom like any other SFC cart. The only difference was that they did not come pre-written.

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Re: SNES/Satellaview split?

Post by Gary_Oak » 06 Aug 2010 20:20

C. V. Reynolds wrote:Why the Nintendo Power carts, however? They just plugged into the Super Famicom like any other SFC cart. The only difference was that they did not come pre-written.
Really? I always though that Nintendo Power was just like the Sega Meganet service (digital format only as far as I am concerned). But if that is indeed the case, then there's little point in making a separate dat since those games will play natively on the SNES without requiring any additional peripherals.

A dat for Nintendo Power games would only make sense if the games were download-only (no physical format), but apparently, that's not the case.

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Re: SNES/Satellaview split?

Post by C. V. Reynolds » 06 Aug 2010 21:11

Hmm. The way I understand it, one buys the Nintendo Power (re-writable?) carts and they are empty at first except for a menu written to them that allows one to select games (should one choose to download multiple smaller games into the cart). One takes them to a kiosk and downloads game data into them. They then play in a SFC just as if they were regular carts. So, one downloads the data, but the hardware one downloads into is pretty much a custom SNES cart.

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Re: SNES/Satellaview split?

Post by Gary_Oak » 06 Aug 2010 21:32

C. V. Reynolds wrote:Hmm. The way I understand it, one buys the Nintendo Power (re-writable?) carts and they are empty at first except for a menu written to them that allows one to select games (should one choose to download multiple smaller games into the cart). One takes them to a kiosk and downloads game data into them. They then play in a SFC just as if they were regular carts. So, one downloads the data, but the hardware one downloads into is pretty much a custom SNES cart.
In short, they were like flash cards to some extend. According to Wikipedia, the Nintendo Power cartridge is considered a peripheral, but it's one that runs games as they were designed to, in native hardware (both console and cartridge) and without any add-ons.

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Re: SNES/Satellaview split?

Post by badinsults » 07 Aug 2010 04:51

Really, does it make any difference if it is in the SNES set? It seems like it is the logical place to put it.

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Re: SNES/Satellaview split?

Post by C. V. Reynolds » 07 Aug 2010 22:17

The Nintendo Power carts? I don't think it does make a difference, and the SNES dat is the best place to put them indeed. However, Satellaview and SuFami Turbo games should be moved to their own dats I believe, in compliance with usual No-Intro behavior, as per the former arguments. I don't want the thread to get too far off the rail, which is why I reiterate this.

kiddocabbusses
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Re: SNES/Satellaview split?

Post by kiddocabbusses » 08 Dec 2011 22:32

Since it's been a while since anything was contributed to this thread, I'll bump it with this new argument for splitting the Satellaview into it's own DAT:

There's been a fairly large increase in the number of Satellaview ROMs since a few years back; Going from Konae-chan to BS Monopoly, I've lost count of how many dumps there are, and it's very possible it's double what there were just 5 years ago.
I think it's a valid concern that there's a possibility of Satellaview data bloating the SNES DAT if they stayed there, with so many ROMs that it makes navigating for the normal SNES data more difficult.

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Re: SNES/Satellaview split?

Post by hydr0x » 09 Dec 2011 08:54

I think numbers are never relevant in this regard. You either have a rule/definition that decides when two systems are seperate or you don't. If you have, it shouldn't matter how many games are affected by this. Now I don't really care either way, just saying that numbers shouldn't matter.

kiddocabbusses
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Re: SNES/Satellaview split?

Post by kiddocabbusses » 09 Dec 2011 21:18

hydr0x wrote:I think numbers are never relevant in this regard. You either have a rule/definition that decides when two systems are seperate or you don't. If you have, it shouldn't matter how many games are affected by this. Now I don't really care either way, just saying that numbers shouldn't matter.
While I agree with your point on an idealistic level, I don't really think I've seen this applied practically (or consistently) in terms of organization of ROMs and DATs.
After all, based on much rules/definitions the Satellaview probably would have been split from the main SNES database back before the no-intro days when GoodSNES was the main DAT around, but that hasn't happened.
It tends to be seen on my end that no matter how much people harp about rules and definitions, in the end it tends to be more about one of these two factors;
1) How much effort one is willing to put into it.
or
2) How many pieces of data can be in one set before someone considers it cluttered and overfilled, thinking a reorganization is needed outright.

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C. V. Reynolds
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Re: SNES/Satellaview split?

Post by C. V. Reynolds » 09 Dec 2011 21:46

I still strongly desire Satellaview and Sufami Turbo to have their own dats. No worries over the workload: If someone will set it up for me to do, then I'm willing to do it, no matter how long it could take. I'll have much pride when I finish.

I'll piece together a Satellaview dat for myself to help in this endeavor when the time comes.

Sufami Turbo, though? That'll obviously be easy.

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